Curse

Sir Mad · Dec 03, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Erm 3 chapters, 3 rangers and 8 millions of experience on one of them later, I learnt the use of one skill: Oath Shot. If you don't want to run Trapper's Focus, and don't have other imperatives as in the example I quoted earlier, this is the skill to bring, the skill that will recharge both your traps and WD and/or Throw Dirt.

Wild Blow: how many warriors in PvE use that? I don't think you can say a skill is bad because there is another skill in game to counter it.

About Blindness: what? Because foes can hit you 1 time out of 10 when they're blinded, it's not good? Heck! And I can't get the reasoning: they can still hit you when blinded, so you'd better not take anything to prevent interrupting. If foes attacking you when blinded are a problem, it must be a HUGE problem when they attack you and are not blinded...

EDIT - Also, WD and Throw Dirt recharge time even without Oath Shot is still managable, as the most important is to be able to drop the first trap, the AoE scatter and the blindness from Dust Trap help a lot not to be targetted after.

XvArchonvX · Dec 04, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

In short,Archon,you are dead wrong!

Umm, in short you need to go back and read what I said.

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

You are assuming that I would always be stopped.You are assuming that I would never get the trap down. You are assuming that the enemy doesn't attack the monk, and you are assuming that you are right.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that using traps without some protection from interuption is very unreliable. I'm saying it's unreliable to the point that the benefits of having a trap are outweighed by the likeliness that you won't be successfully dropping enough to make the skills worth your time. I never said that the enemy doesn't attack the monk and if you would review my post you should be able to see that. I said that the enemies won't be attacking ONLY the monk. In case you haven't noticed, some enemies switch targets pretty often (such as casters that spam hexes). All it takes is one tap from a caster's wand to kill your trap.

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

You assume too much.

Judging by your misunderstanding, I'm under the impression you made a lot of radical assumptions on what I meant from my post.

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Did you forget that the dust trap causes damage,earth damage if I am correct,and the monsters respond to it like an AoE damage effect, running from the trap, already blinded. 6 seconds is more than enough time to take down and interupt a caster,monk or otherwise, and retarget for the next closest soft target.

Yes, it will do damage, but not much. It will also cause AoE effect which may be counterproductive to your groups intentions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Your Throw Dirt isn't doing anything but blinding,so the enemy will hug up on you and wait for the blindness to be removed or for it to wear off. This isn't blinding flash,my friend, you have roughly 30 seconds before you can blind a with this again. So if the monk removes the condition from the encroaching warrior/attacker then what do you do? WD? Lets's look at that next

And this is different than the blindness from your trap how? How many enemy monks are removing conditions in PvE? If you are against condition removing enemies, than a condition build is a pretty weak choice to run in general, regardless of the skills used.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Your stance of choice has a 75% chance to protect you from being interupted. Do you really think that will stop a good warrior?

WD is not perfect, but it is a hell of a lot better than a 0% chance to protect from interuption. There is no perfect way to drop a trap without interuption, but some methods are more reliable than other. If you haven't noticed by now, that is the point I'm trying to make. As for your point on wild blow, it should be know that a stance is not a good idea to run in an area where wild blow is prevalent. In such a case, throw dirt would be a better choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Have you ever been hit by a supposedly blinded foe? I have, and so have many others, because being blinded means that their have a very slim chance of hitting with an attack, but not totally unable. If the blind doesn't stick and is removed by the monk, then a good attacker/warrior will have this now popular skill. Your stance is now off and recharging for 60 seconds. Now, that you have thrown your dirt and/or have used WD, what will you do?

Again, this is a rather irrelevant point since using Dust Trap presents the same shortcomings.

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

While this is my weapon of choice from the very begining. This is my defense and extra damage on one skill slot. Sure, the blind can be removed,but the damage still occurs long enough for me to take advantage of the situation,and as the trap is sprung the blind can be reapplied as long as the trap is setting off. So the attacker will more than likely back off,giving me the next opportunity to place poison on my arrow. Screaming Shot+ Burning Arrow+ Savage Shot = 1 dead caster target or one very hampered attacker/warrior in melee range,either dead or nearly dead. Let's not even throw a second ranger in the mix yet, because that means a 2nd set of traps that this warrior/attacker will be kited into. That means more conditions,more poison, more degen...do you understand my meaning yet?

Yes, the damage from Dust Trap might be a nice bonus, but again, it is a very unreliable skill to bring if you can't protect yourself from getting interupted. Even if you are not interupted EVERY time you use it, when you do get interupted, then you have wasted 15 energy (this is taking into account the reduction from your attributes in expertise) and will not be able to try again for another 30 seconds.

To summarize everything, my point is that dropping a trap mid-battle with no defensive stance or blind cover is unreliable to the point that the benefits of the trap are outweighed by the drawbacks of the interuption that is very likely to occur when attempting to use them.

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

I doubt you will ever understand or agree with my way of playing, so let's just say that 1 million+ experience points later, and 3 chapters in, my way works for me, and your way works for you.

I find it a bit arrogant for you to imply that my disagreeance is result of a lack of understanding. Also it is a bit petty to start bragging about your experience (especialy since 1 mil+ experience is rather small compared to many rangers that post here). No one ever insinuated that you hadn't played enough to express an educated opinon. The only criticism I have seen you draw has been due your ideas, not your ability/experience/etc.

Oh and congrats to Sir Mad on becoming an elite guru....even though I have no idea what that is :P

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 04, 2006, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Arrogant? Archon, you don't seem to understand that experience and skill is the true name of the game when it comes to being best prepared to express any opinion,since people always seem to question your ability when you make a comment.

Also, my reference to my 1 million+ experience points have been gained purely through play and not through farming with my ranger, since that is my ranger alone we are refering to. Not my warriors, monk,eles, or any other character types, since they have little relevance to the topic of "Rangers".

Like I said, you play your way, and I play mine. I said that you look at laying traps in the general since of defensive effectiveness, while I look at the laying of traps in the terms of applying skill at the proper time. Trapping in general is about skill being applied properly and effectively. You feel that I have questionable practices? Fine,I can except that, but to say that the trap is not going to be laid down is an assumption, however educated it may be, but still,it is what it is.

An assumption.

Your feelings on the matter taken into account, they have valid points for those of lesser experience, or for a PvP build, but in PvE the stance useage would be needed if you intend to stick your head on the chopping block of every fight.

I never do that, nor would I begin doing that as a ranger. Without WD or TD,if I position myself properly I have a solid 75% chance to lay my trap every time I attempt to put it down,+/-5%. That works for me when I use my skill bar for effective attack/interupt ability. I can sacrifice my 90% trapping ability to be more effective all around.

That may not be what you or others feel as "Effective", but it's how I play the game.

Let's trap sometime, and I promise to bring WD

Sir Mad · Dec 04, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I suggest to forget the XP argue which is rather stupid, erm...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

I never do that, nor would I begin doing that as a ranger. Without WD or TD,if I position myself properly I have a solid 75% chance to lay my trap every time I attempt to put it down,+/-5%.

One thing bugs me: what percentage of traps ain't interupted if your 1st trap (dust trap probably?) is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Oh and congrats to Sir Mad on becoming an elite guru....even though I have no idea what that is :P

Thanks but there is nothing to be pround of

XvArchonvX · Dec 04, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Arrogant? Archon, you don't seem to understand that experience and skill is the true name of the game when it comes to being best prepared to express any opinion,since people always seem to question your ability when you make a comment.

Also, my reference to my 1 million+ experience points have been gained purely through play and not through farming with my ranger, since that is my ranger alone we are refering to. Not my warriors, monk,eles, or any other character types, since they have little relevance to the topic of "Rangers".

Having knowledge of what the skills do does not mean you know how to use them to their maximum potential.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Like I said, you play your way, and I play mine. I said that you look at laying traps in the general since of defensive effectiveness, while I look at the laying of traps in the terms of applying skill at the proper time. Trapping in general is about skill being applied properly and effectively. You feel that I have questionable practices? Fine,I can except that, but to say that the trap is not going to be laid down is an assumption, however educated it may be, but still,it is what it is.

If you want to stand around waiting for a spot to open for you to drop a trap, then go for it. Personally, I'd rather be in the battle contributing before, during, and after any traps may be laid.

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

An assumption.

And this is supposed to mean what? Assumptions are needed on some level to establish any kind of debate here. I have to assume that you are telling the truth. I have to assume that you are playing in areas that produce enough of a challenge for your argument to be worth some merit. I have to assume that many other things be equal for my point to be comparable to yours. Whether you admit it or not, you have made just as many assumptions to be able to make any counter argument against me. If you want to believe that all you have spoken is concrete fact with no room for error, feel free to, but don't expect anyone to take you too seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Your feelings on the matter taken into account, they have valid points for those of lesser experience, or for a PvP build, but in PvE the stance useage would be needed if you intend to stick your head on the chopping block of every fight.

I don't believe experience has anything to do with my counterpoints. You may know how to wait for an opportunity to drop a trap, but while you do that you are waiting, not fighting to your full potential. If your traps are your big damage skills, then you are losing out on damage potential until you start dropping your traps. Enemy AI is also rather random on who it attacks. As one who plays a monk often, I can feel confident saying that. Some characters may be less likely to be attacked, but it is not to the point that it will make them safe from a single attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

I never do that, nor would I begin doing that as a ranger. Without WD or TD,if I position myself properly I have a solid 75% chance to lay my trap every time I attempt to put it down,+/-5%. That works for me when I use my skill bar for effective attack/interupt ability. I can sacrifice my 90% trapping ability to be more effective all around.

So you have numbers for us? Would you like to share your data that brought you to this conclusion?

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

That may not be what you or others feel as "Effective", but it's how I play the game.

ok, have fun.

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Let's trap sometime, and I promise to bring WD

No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Thanks but there is nothing to be pround of

Wow, I never knew that existed. Thanks for the link, I got signed up myself.

jesh · Dec 23, 2006, 02:24 AM // 02:24

A couple days ago, I was fighting my way to Gates of Kryta from LA. I wanted to get there to train my aggressive tiger, so I didn't equip him so that he wouldn't take uneeded damage.
My skillbar was all mesmer garbage, and flametrap. I didn't have any skills to protect me, and I had so much fun just running up to a few casters bunched together and using flametrap. I didn't get interrupted once.
I think that maybe in the AI changes, something was put in that made the caster monsters dumber with their wanding behavior. I know when I first made a trapper, about a year ago, that I needed a stance and throw dirt, and I'd still get interrupted. *shrug*
I haven't bothered to "trap" since then, so maybe it could just be that area, too.

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 23, 2006, 11:49 AM // 11:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Having knowledge of what the skills do does not mean you know how to use them to their maximum potential.

And your questioning my ability makes you the great master of rangers? Your having an idea of application doesn't mean that what you feel is 'optimal' for success is the only way to be successful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If you want to stand around waiting for a spot to open for you to drop a trap, then go for it. Personally, I'd rather be in the battle contributing before, during, and after any traps may be laid.

What part of my build says I ever stand around doing nothing? I will tell you once more, my build is an Archer build that uses 2 traps. Why would I be standing around doing nothing if my primary purpose and means of attacking are from my bow? Please read more and critique less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

And this is supposed to mean what? Assumptions are needed on some level to establish any kind of debate here. I have to assume that you are telling the truth. I have to assume that you are playing in areas that produce enough of a challenge for your argument to be worth some merit. I have to assume that many other things be equal for my point to be comparable to yours. Whether you admit it or not, you have made just as many assumptions to be able to make any counter argument against me. If you want to believe that all you have spoken is concrete fact with no room for error, feel free to, but don't expect anyone to take you too seriously.

And what you say is supposed to be productive by face value? This arguement is rather pointless, since you have constantly refused to actually "play" the game with me. I have stuck the olive branch out to you on a few occassions now and you have unceremoniously tossed it back in my face. Your total and unrelenting refusal to even see for yourself what I am capable of or if my practices are effective only show that your stuck in your opinions and may be too closed minded to see that maybe what I do is just as effective as I say. It's sad that this might be the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I don't believe experience has anything to do with my counterpoints. You may know how to wait for an opportunity to drop a trap, but while you do that you are waiting, not fighting to your full potential. If your traps are your big damage skills, then you are losing out on damage potential until you start dropping your traps. Enemy AI is also rather random on who it attacks. As one who plays a monk often, I can feel confident saying that. Some characters may be less likely to be attacked, but it is not to the point that it will make them safe from a single attack.

Once again, you have been so adamant on your arguement about my useage of traps that you still failed to read what I said. Archer build, remember? If I am using an archer's build, what is my main source of attack? The bow, correct? My main source of dealing damage? Marksmanship 16, remember? You're losing focus, too caught up in your assumptions to pay attention to the details of a one sided arguement I have been trying to end for some time now. I also play a monk(which expanded my understanding of the rear line and what happens to non frontline players), I do know of the way AI enemies switch targets, but sadly, it isn't so random as you are making it out to be.

Enemies attack in a similar fashion as players. Soft targets first, prefering to attack healers first, then, if no healer or soft target is close by, they will mostly attack whoever is closest, possibly making it appear random. Finally, they will pick targets by who is attacking them if they have no other choice. This is not randomness, this is logic in action. AI crunches numbers, if it is dying, it attacks its killer, if it is healed it will ignore its attackers and continue on it's assault for softer targets. Logic, not randomness.

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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

So you have numbers for us? Would you like to share your data that brought you to this conclusion?

Ok, if you can produce numbers that state that I will not be able to be effective with my 2 traps, as you have dogedly stated throughout your follow up posts, I will surely prove you wrong, but that would mean you would have to come out with me to find out for yourself, which you have constantly refused to do.

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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

No thanks.

I rest my case...

XvArchonvX · Dec 24, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

And your questioning my ability makes you the great master of rangers? Your having an idea of application doesn't mean that what you feel is 'optimal' for success is the only way to be successful.

No it doesn't. My point was that experience is not a reflection of one's ability to play efficiently. I made no statement that declared or infered myself as being a "master of rangers". If you still think that having more experience in game makes you a more knowledgable ranger, or have a better understanding of what a good build is, then I would suggest you not go bragging about 1 mil exp, even if none of it is farmed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

What part of my build says I ever stand around doing nothing? I will tell you once more, my build is an Archer build that uses 2 traps. Why would I be standing around doing nothing if my primary purpose and means of attacking are from my bow? Please read more and critique less.

Your build doesn't tell me you are standing around, your explanation does:

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

What I do is flag my heroes at the edge of aggro range,very close to enemies. since I usually keep a ranger hero with me in my party,they will be able to trap as well. I lay dust trap first, so in case the monsters cross into the aggro bubble and charge me, the first thing that happens is that they are blinded. This makes the use of a defensive stance not as needed since I never start the aggro before the dust trap is laid down.

In this scenario, you are waiting for others to establish aggro until you attack. In a PvE type scenario, much of the battle can already be dealt in this time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

And what you say is supposed to be productive by face value? This arguement is rather pointless, since you have constantly refused to actually "play" the game with me. I have stuck the olive branch out to you on a few occassions now and you have unceremoniously tossed it back in my face. Your total and unrelenting refusal to even see for yourself what I am capable of or if my practices are effective only show that your stuck in your opinions and may be too closed minded to see that maybe what I do is just as effective as I say. It's sad that this might be the case.

I don't expect it to be taken strictly by face value. This is why I have made points and counterpoints to my debate with you. My refusal to join you in game is not a result of a closeminded opinion towards your strategy and assuming that my reasoning such is frankly quite petty.

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Once again, you have been so adamant on your arguement about my useage of traps that you still failed to read what I said. Archer build, remember? If I am using an archer's build, what is my main source of attack? The bow, correct? My main source of dealing damage? Marksmanship 16, remember? You're losing focus, too caught up in your assumptions to pay attention to the details of a one sided arguement I have been trying to end for some time now. I also play a monk(which expanded my understanding of the rear line and what happens to non frontline players), I do know of the way AI enemies switch targets, but sadly, it isn't so random as you are making it out to be.

Enemies attack in a similar fashion as players. Soft targets first, prefering to attack healers first, then, if no healer or soft target is close by, they will mostly attack whoever is closest, possibly making it appear random. Finally, they will pick targets by who is attacking them if they have no other choice. This is not randomness, this is logic in action. AI crunches numbers, if it is dying, it attacks its killer, if it is healed it will ignore its attackers and continue on it's assault for softer targets. Logic, not randomness.

If you use bow attacks for your main source of damage, then why do you wait for aggro to be established, then drop traps as your first action? As for your other arguments, I ran builds with traps and no defensive stances before. This is largely my reasoning for bringing a defensive stance. AI doesn't always judge targets solely based on armor, health, etc. It also takes into account what enemies are nearby. If you are right next to an enemy and your ally is farther away, the AI enemy is more likely to attack you. Even if you are not the primary target, enemy AoE type attacks also act to interupt traps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Ok, if you can produce numbers that state that I will not be able to be effective with my 2 traps, as you have dogedly stated throughout your follow up posts, I will surely prove you wrong, but that would mean you would have to come out with me to find out for yourself, which you have constantly refused to do.

My argument was never that you wouldn't be able to drop your traps, and trying to bring math into this is just plain stupid. There is no mathematical way to tell if someone can drop a trap without being interupted. My point was that you are not running at full efficiency if you have downtime at the beggining of a battle to be able to drop a trap, especially in a PvE type scenario, where enemies die quickly.

Yes, I have said no to meeting you in game for this, because I don't see any need to meet you in game to test something that I tried out for myself already long ago.

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Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

I rest my case...

Frankly, all that can be said has been said. I thought this debate was done a month ago and hope it's done now. Run whatever build you want, I could really care less.

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 24, 2006, 06:23 AM // 06:23

And that is your reasoning? Because it wasn't within your range of capabilities it isn't as effective? I can except that. You were not capable of making it work,thus it isn't as effective to you, in your opinion.Fine.

As for my tactical use of positioning, why should I just run into every fight, when I could prep, trap and be more effective? You haven't made a point, but showed the logic in my thinking. Thank you.

As for our debates in the recent past, they were done when I said you play your way and I play mine, but you seem to always feel your way is "The Way" to play. I've been arrogant,petty, and whatever else you have decided to use to refer to me in the past month, yet you haven't once proven that what I have said can't be done in a PvE setting, or that anything I said is useless or unsound. It just isn't what you considered to be maximumly effective, in your opinion.

It has been nothing but your opinion, which I have stated before, but seems to you to be the word and the law. And as for you caring less about what I run in a build, that would have been nice without a month or so of hounding comments about it being less than effective, in your opinion, before stating so here.

I won't lose sleep for you not caring, but I did wish to find a mutual understanding between us. Obviously, that won't be the case, and that is sad, but unavoidable. It is what it is.

Program Ftw · Dec 24, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Guys, it's trapping. Calm down and go fight in-game.

Thanks,
Program~

XvArchonvX · Dec 24, 2006, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

It has been nothing but your opinion, which I have stated before, but seems to you to be the word and the law. And as for you caring less about what I run in a build, that would have been nice without a month or so of hounding comments about it being less than effective, in your opinion, before stating so here.

Huh? You've expressed your opinion just as much as mine, so I don't get where you come off thinking that I'm 'hounding you' with only my opinion.

I see your strategy as ineficient, that's really all there is to it. You see this your way and I see it mine, so please just get over it and move on. There's no point in continuing this debate any further, especially since it was something that was discussed almost a month ago. Let it go.

koshie · Dec 24, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

wow, you guys are being baby's its trapping everyone has diffrent playing styles everyone uses diffrent build just msg each other in-game and fight there or do trapping contest or something but stop fighting here.

XvArchonvX · Dec 25, 2006, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by koshie

wow, you guys are being baby's its trapping everyone has diffrent playing styles everyone uses diffrent build just msg each other in-game and fight there or do trapping contest or something but stop fighting here.

...yea...trapping contest. Either that or we could just let this month old debate die and move on.

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 25, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Lol, he refused to meet ingame. So, imo, it's a moot issue. I am willing to trap with anyone who wants to trap. I am willing to talk and help anyone who is willing to ask for it. I am willing to give a person a chance.

This just isn't what some others want to do. The gameworld is big, we will cross paths at some point. It will happen. This chapter, or the next, it is bound to happen. Until then, the issue is dead.

areala serke · Feb 04, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

On your favorite ranger monk build that you list first would a sundering feathered flatbow of fortitude (it's perfect) work well? I have a barbed fabian flatbow with inscription (show me the money) and bleeding increased to 33%) damage is plus 19.

Also how do these work with you Melandru's arrow build?

Thanks for your post it was helpful

Moun10Dew · Feb 04, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Hey i never played a ranger that much outside of a R/W with a hammer...

after i made a W/E with conjure flame + sun and moon slash (which was very fun in RA). i made a R/E with conjure flame + kindle arrows + dual shot.

i just want you to tell me what you think of it. (the char i made was a pvp, but i was thinking about a pve ranger).

here are the skills i used-

Conjure Flame
Kindle Arrows
Dual Shot
Distracting Shot
Savage Shot
Punishing Shot (as my elite)
Whirling Defense
Troll Urgent/ressig
---
i can see why you don't like this as much; your attributes get split up. and kindle arrows hits higher than conjure flame.

I was also wondering if needling shot cancels preparations. like if i used it would kindle arrows and conjure flame still hit?

thank you, i really liked your post

Amy Awien · Feb 04, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Needling shot does not cancel preparations, so you can use it with Kindle, and it does not cancel enchantments, so Conjure should be fine.

darkk rider · Mar 12, 2007, 02:17 PM // 14:17

great guide.